Saturday, May 15, 2010

Trust Birth and Doulas

I was at the MAWS conference yesterday listening to Penny Simkin speak about what the research is saying about malpositioned babies (which was fascinating, I'll post about that, too). She made a comment about supporting her clients in labor and how sometimes she has to ask the mothers to do something they don't want to do for just a few contractions. I thought about times where I've been with clients and whether I've asked women to do things they didn't really want to do and while nothing specific comes to mind, I'm sure that it's happened.

I thought about things I've learned about interference, at least the Trust Birth philosophy (as I understand it, which I admit, I don't understand it well). I questioned whether doulas are 'interference' or help, and I wondered what the Trust Birth folk think. I'm sure the conversation has been had somewhere? I'm hoping someone will see this and post.


Kristi Zittle said...


You are right, we have discussed it. Here is the view as I know it. Anyone can be considered interference in normal labor IF it prevents the mother in any way from finding safety, privacy and not feeling observed. The ultimate thing to consider is what the mother wants.

Very often we could suggest or even tell the mom to do something because in our expertise we KNOW it might help to move things along more quickly, but why is it necessary to Tell a mom to do something just to speed things along--especially if she does not ask for or solicit your help. We take that if she hires us, she WANTS us to interject whenever we deem it necessary--but I would say that borders on control.

As a trust birth worker I tell everyone I come into contact with that the mom is to be 100 percent in control. So if a midwife or doula sets this up and establishes this from the start by saying, "I am here to serve you. Whatever you ask me to do I will do, but I will not do anything without your asking." Then goes about educating mom during the prenatal period about great birth and laboring positions, how to breastfeed, how to understand her body's cue's, nutrition, and the list goes on and on and on--then when the mom goes into labor--she will have the knowledge needed to ask for what she wants. With a doula--she could spend visits showing the mom neat massages and pressure points, etc that she is willing to offer as support. Then when mom goes into labor, if mama asks for the hip squeeze or asks for suggestions, the doula can offer, but if mama says nothing, the doula keeps busy doing other things.

I found when I was practicing that women do so much better when left alone and they are so blessed when they get up from birthing and see their house is clean, laundry done, toilet scrubbed, etc. They are so blessed when they know I have read to or played games with little Johnny so they could birth privately. They hire the expert for peace of mind more than anything else.

Sometimes a woman will want more and if she is educated I would honor that (unless it is something I dont' believe in doing but she would already know that ahead of time and could have hired another who did do it). But the point is the trust birther believes in leaving things alone--letting mom be completely in control and only being there for whatever mom needs--not what she needs.

So if the birth lasts an extra hour because mama stayed in indian style seating on the floor--who cares--it is not the birth workers birth. If mama pushes before she is 10 because grunting and pushing feels good to her and IF it causes a little swelling, it will go away and mama will be fine--she is not going to know that she added extra time to her birth because no one knows how long their birth is supposed to last in the first place. I have found that moms left to do as they please move through labor far faster and with little to no issues verses moms who have even the simplest suggestions--it does effect her process.

Think about it--if you are really concentrating on any task and someone steps in, even in a whisper, to tell you a different way to do it--even if their idea is great--it takes you off your concentration and affects your flow of working--and it may even aggravate the snot out of you. Birth is no different--probably even more, because of the hormonal system in play.

We will be discussing all of this and more in just a few short weeks. :-) I am glad to see you wanted more information and glad to see you making a request to hear from those who embrace this as normal! Hope this helps.

Bettie said...

Whenever I am in the role of a doula, I try to avoid being the hero for the mom. If I have done my job correctly, the mom will be well prepared for birth because I feel that it is 80% education, 15% physical presence, and 5% "tricks".

In a hospital setting doulas can help to soothe the insult. She can be the eyes and ears, protecting the family from interference that they may be caught off guard by. However, her role should be well defined before birth.

My favorite doula births were not the ones when I had all the right moves and all the right answers. They were the births were I gently reminded the mom of her strength, and whisper words of encouragement to the dad so that he is the hero.
And when I am really good, I am keeping history for the parents. Add to that picking up, being the gofer, all that makes a doula useful without causing a woman's birth to be hindered.

RedSpiral said...

Okay, I'm not talking about the doula coming from a "look how awesome I am, don't you want to stroke my ego?" place, I never am.

I'm talking about when for example, as a doula I know this baby is OP and I know this mom is suffering extra pain. I know there are things we can try. I offer, she says yes. Is that interference?

I am just wondering about what is considered interference. Is it anything outside of the birthing woman being alone and following her instincts? Would a partner be considered interference?

I'd like to talk about this more. I know there are people (in the world) who draw the lines very conservatively and those who don't. Who defines interference - the mother? The provider?

Anonymous said...

The mother ALWAYS defines, never a birth worker.

RedSpiral said...

I agree, but then how do we know we're interfering until after the fact?

Anonymous said...

Personally I could never bring myself to ask a mama to do anything she didn't want to do. The only time where I believe any care giver should say what needs to be done is in a true emergency situation where the Mother is not aware of something needing to be addressed. You saying ''I'm sure it's happened'' made me wonder how I'd feel if I ever said those words. No judgement, just in the same way that Penny's words made you think, that made me think, too. I don't think I'd want to be in Birth work at all, should I ever look back on any birth and feel like I'd made a woman do something she didn't want to. I know how that feels all too well, to be on the receiving end, and I could never ever be someone that did that onto other women. I don't sepcifically see a Doula as an interference, neither do I see a Midwife as an interference, It's what is done that's interfering, not the person. I think most of the work has to be done long before labour starts. The women needs to know and feel and believe that she is the one in charge, she should be feeling in control and empowered, knowing that anything that happens will be her wishes only. Doulas are there for support, and the woman should know all limitations of the Doula present, as well as everything she is happy and able to provide, so that she may ask for this as and when the situation arises. Anyone in the room should be respectful of the same things, creating the environment in which the mother can go into her birth trance feeling relaxed safe and respected. ''Would you like....'' ''should I...'' ''shall we...'' if the mama knows she is the one in the driving seat and knows everything available to her do questions always need to be asked? things offered? To me that is indeed interference. She can ask as and when she wants anything, rather than having her bubble burst and then, looking back, feeling that less could have been done, that she didn't feel totally in control. ''How do we know we're interfering....?'' I think that's in our hearts. We know in a primal place exactly what we need. I love it when people question interference, because it shows how we're connecting to that place that's screaming ''this is wrong'' :)

BookwormMama said...

I was surprised about Penny saying that she asks mothers to do something they don't want to do for a few contractions. Is it Penny's birth or theirs? IS she in charge or is the mother? Yes, she may see something that she believes needs 'fixing' but the only place I would see it would be ok to ask or tell a mother to do something she clearly doesn't want to do, would be in an emergency.
In my beautiful homebirth VBAC, everything went well except the very end when my midwives both became a little antsy ... as they told me to "push, push, push" and I clearly remember being so upset that I was being directed to push when I looked forward to not having that a part of my birth experience at home. Instead it was. I also had "gentle cord traction" and had to push out my placenta at the insistence of my midwife when she wanted to deliver it. I suffered from a slight hemorrhage, no surprise. While pushing, I had been terrified of the pain I felt in my cesarean scar, afraid that I was rupturing {i did not know this was a "normal" feeling of scar tissue breaking up} and so I pushed very gently and carefully which is why the midwives panicked, aside from the fact that my baby's heart tones were completely almost non-existent at the last second {he was in the birth canal... I didn't know that was normal to not find heart tones in that place}. I pushed out my baby after my midwife said, "Stephanie, we are going to have to do an episiotomy if you don't push this baby out with the next contraction." So I roared and I did. Nuchal cord x3 around his neck loosely and that was blamed for his low heart tones. I went over my records and the every 2 min. heart tone records later and discussed it with the midwives. Baby's heart tones never went below 100 except for that last minute when baby was in the birth canal. Why I was threatened with an episiotomy, I will never know. The one midwife joked later about how sometimes they have to "scare" a woman into pushing hard enough, especially a VBAC mother.
My pushing time was 56 minutes- first time vaginal birth. Guess I wasn't fast enough for their liking. Don't get me wrong, there were many things I loved about this birth, but I was "told" what to do many times and cleary did not have the power in my own home. I can understand that in an emergency. I don't know whether or not that really was an emergency or not. the midwives claim it was. I talked to other midwives who say it wasn't. Maybe I will never know. Threatened with an episiotomy and afraid for my baby's life, I did whatever I was told no questions asked. Looking back, I most likely just had a managed birth even at home. I know that is possible. To this day I am still upset about it. I know how other midwives, who are more gentle and hands off, would have handled that situation. Would that mean my baby would not have survived? I don't have the answer to that question. But I do know that I did things I didn't want to do in order to help fix someone else's fears, whether real or imagined. Would I have done anything different with what I know now? Probably. But I didn't know more then and if I was the person I was then I probably would have done the same thing all over again with the same resentments and frustration at my birth being taken over.
My mother attended my birth and believes my baby was saved by the midwives from sudden death.
I felt that I was able to give birth vaginally, in spite of the midwife's interference.
I did not hire them again.

BookwormMama said...

I guess I didn't answer the question in hand specifically. I am not of the Trust Birth mindset completely {not sure what I think about all of it, still mulling it over in my head}, so I don't know whether or not my answer will count, but I guess if a doula is asking a woman/mother to do something because she {the doula} sees or wants a particular outcome or believes it will help without the mother asking for it first or coming to her for help/suggestions then I would see that as interference. If however, the mother asks the doula for ideas/suggestions/help then her ideas would not be an interference but an answer to her plea for specific help or ideas.

RedSpiral said...

Anonymous (Carla? Is that you? :)) --

When I say "I'm sure it's happened" I guess I'm saying that because while I go in (and Stephanie can account for how I behave at a birth) with my ego set aside, my wish for an outcome set aside- my desire and intention is to meet every moment as it arrives - I can't say without a doubt that I've never suggested something that a client hasn't agreed to whether she wanted it or not. I don't think any birth attendant can say that- we just simply have no way to know how things land with the mothers and sometimes they can't really remember it either, anyway. I've never, ever pushed a client into something they didn't want to do just because I wanted her to, absolutely not. There's a fine line there. I hear you aren't judging and I appreciate your statement- I wanted to just clarify what I meant when I said that.

I smell another blog post coming down the pipe! (Maybe 'smell' isn't the right word.. haha)

Anonymous said...

No, Kristina, It's Kelly, Kelly-Louisa Anderson and we are indeed ''friends'' on Facebook as well.

I'm afraid that I do know many birth attendants, and also an increasing number of whom, who indeed can say they haven't ''suggested'' a thing. That's a whole philosophy of being WITH WOMAN in itself. It is indeed just being with, and trusting.

As I said, if all of the work is done prior to labour, there can indeed be a place where you needn't be the one suggesting, not always no, we know things happen, but for the most part, yes it is doable, and yes that is the essence of not interfering.

Bettie said...

If we are in the position of suggesting to a mom anything, then yes, we are interfering. Yes, her partner can be interference as well.

I would rather say to a mom that I can help her change positions if she is clearly unhappy with her current one, but I steer clear of telling her what position to take unless she asks me for guidance.

I try to stay out of her way, and even out of the room until very close to the end of labor. Until then, she is quite able to take care of her own needs and to articulate what she wants without my help.

If we are truly serving the mother, we will be there when needed and out of the way when we aren't.

RedSpiral said...

Bettie, I hear that for YOU, suggesting things to mothers is interference. Is that the general philosophy of TB or just how you interpret and integrate it?

RedSpiral said...

Hi Kelly-Louisa! :D

Okay, so is the suggestion of something the interference? (I am honestly not trying to be difficult, I really don't understand where the line is drawn for TB).

This conversation has been SO SO SO helpful to me! The gray areas are finally sort of filling in, I am gaining clarity. I wouldn't say I'm quite there, but thank you all SO much for jumping in and sharing this with me as I question and inquire. :) I appreciate it very much, I am truly enjoying this dialogue!

Anonymous said...

Well we know it isn't just suggestion, we know that interference takes on many different levels. The obvious interventions(AROM, etc) to interFEARance (having a birth attendant with their own fear of birth)to noise and fuss and maybe, in many case yes, suggestions.

Most of the ''work'' I do, and have done, for a while now (about 5 years, almost daily), is speaking to mothers and families, about their experiences, some because they were awfully traumatic, some because for them, *something* just wasn't right. In most cases they feel more able to speak to me either alone, or in our group, when I seem impartial, when I'm not there as the Midwife or Doula that attended, when I'm not representing either, just another mum that has big shoulders and likes to listen when people want to talk. So I hear, over and over, about the times where indeed ''just'' suggestion, is the thing the mamma remembers negatively. ''I wish she'd just shut up'' ''I wish I could have just asked for xyz when I realised I wanted it'', I have so many quotes I'd be here all day, but do you get their point?

And these are voices, in many cases, from homebirths. Beautiful homebirths, with happy outcomes, or so we think. And I'm sure, on many levels, are to the family. But, the mamma has that feeling that something was ''stolen'' that it still wasn't quite right, that after all of her plans and hopes and self educating and speaking to her attendants, she still didn't really get as hands off as she wanted.

In all honesty most of this does relate to the Midwives as opposed to Doulas, however, I could name quite a few cases (and clients and doulas by name if I had to ;) ) where the poor mamma has said the same words. Just last week a woman found me thru my support group, she'd had a doula, and after emailing we spoke on the phone. She sobbed and said ''it was just like she NEEDED to help, like I was just there to make her feel good that she COULD help...'' then she listed all of these suggestions, and would you likes, shall we's etc etc.

I found it heartbreaking. In fact more so than the stories about Midwives in some way, because I half expect to hear the tales of examinations etc, I don't expect to hear it in regard to a mother appointed attendant that's truly only meant to be there as a ''servant'' -- as the name suggests in many translations.

So yes, in many cases, suggestion can indeed be interference.


Bettie said...


This is about more than a philosophy of a particular organization. Your suggestion that this is the way the Trust Birth spells out its rule and everyone who subscribes to it is following the Trust Birth method...that is simply not what this is about. This is not about my interpretation, this is me relating to you a certain truth.

There may be times when interfering at birth is necessary and even good. Most of the time it is InterFEARing, which means that is interrupting the normal process for the sake of preserving the protocols and comfort levels of those who are assisting the woman at birth.

If we go back to the basics of what it takes for a woman to give birth, the physical and hormonal processes involved. It is so intricate that we should be standing in quiet awe if we are allowed to observe. Instead, we are usually flapping our jaws and making helpful suggestions, and partaking in side conversations.

Truly undisturbed birth is impossible to achieve in the hospital. A woman in a high-risk situation may need more assistance to help her achieve a more desirable birth situation...this is because her hormonal pathways have been disturbed by machinery and medications. However, we are kidding ourselves if we believe that the presence of a "helpful, hands-on doula" will save any woman...we would do better to educate and enlighten prior to birth ever beginning.

Instead of letting yourself get riled up and protecting your title of doula, I suggest that you redefine your role, become a true helper.

RedSpiral said...

@ Bettie, I see this is where the conversation begins to become personal and starts to degrade. Thank you so much for sharing what is true for you, I have really enjoyed talking with you and learning. I have learned a lot!


I am always saddened when I hear about doulas who attend births so that they can basically get props for what they do, either socially or by the mother. I know this dynamic exists in every profession. My favorite births are where I'm not (or barely) needed! I have never felt that one of my clients 'can't do it without me' and I'm glad for that - I feel like my compass is clear in that respect. It takes something so important away from the parents when the support people are coming from an ego-centric place, no doubt.

Anonymous said...

It does indeed. There are so many people in birth work that should be spending time on their own healing before being anywhere near mothers and babies, that mother and baby only get to do it once.

And it just goes to show that what can be seen as the smallest of ''interferences'' can have huge effects on the mother (and father) and how the birth is looked back upon. As I said, it's all too common that the suggestions aren't actually welcomed (even in hindsight).

Enjoyed the chance to contribute.

Kelly-Louisa Anderson.

Bettie said...

Kristina, my hope would be that you would consider the facts. If you can't buy what I am saying then try reading Odent, or can we have any dispute if what we believe is based on fact?

I am willing to admit that some of the things that I have done at births was based on worries or fear because I didn't completely trust the process, are you? There is no shame in that because we have been conditioned our entire lives to be afraid of birth! The shame comes when we learn the truth and still can't make necessary changes because we are so entrenched in a backward way of thinking.

We are all works in progress...I hope that your debates will lead you to truth.

Kristi Zittle said...

Here is the bottom line for the Trust Birth philosophy, Kristina........BOTTOM LINE........

The MOTHER is ALWAYS in complete control!!!!!!! Everything that is done is to support her right to choose what happens at her birth, who serves at her birth (or who doesn't) and to keep her in control!

Now with that in mind--you ask yourself and any other midwife whom you admire or respect and if you can honestly say that the above was true and upheld--then you or they were maintaining the TB philosophy.

The problem is, is that most midwives/doula's/ob's cannot say this. They suggest what they think the mother ought to do, they fear her into making choices and decisions (not just provide the information and allow her to choose--they give their bent on why she should choose such and such), they DO things with or without her approval during labor, birth and postpartum and they bad-mouth anyone who does not believe in what they think is judicious and right. They call for emergency care and make emergency decisions without the approval or consent of the mother because they think their judgment is best--they refuse to allow the mother to provide them with a birth plan because afterall, "She hired me so she should trust me to know what is best for her care."

When you spend an entire pregnancy doing nothing but educating a woman--weeks and months teaching her about different labor positons and why they are beneficiail; different foods to eat and why they prevent pre-eclampsia; different techniques and movements to help an asynclitic baby--and the list goes on--SHE WON"T NEED YOUR HELP IN LABOR!!!!

kristi Zittle said...

CONTINUED:BUT IF SHE WANTS IT--then a true SERVANT birth worker will do what she asks for them to do. But that same servant birth worker will not feel a need to SUGGEST it be done because that worker thinks it will help her. So the mother who wants more heart tones during labor--can have it--it is her choice!!!! But she will get a fetoscope as a doppler would harm her baby. If she wants her urine tested and BP and temp taken at certain intervals, she can have it--but she will already know she has to ask for it to be done so that it is her wish and not someone's suggestion so it can be done when she needs it done to give her peace of mind so her birth can progress at a point she is comfortable with. If she is not certain what position may help her--she will remember the gal who was teaching her throughout her pregnancy and will ask--hey can you suggest a new position, I know I need a change. Or she may say, man my hips hurt, could you do that pressure move you showed me at our last appointment together. Her hormones not effected by her focus being thwarted--she is in complete control--the worker there to serve her needs--not their own. All moms can be well served--the one who wants lots of hands on, verses the one who doesn't even want her husband in the room with her. The point is--WE ARE SERVING THE MOTHER and BABY--Not ourselves.
THat is the point. No further chatter needed.

Here is my question for you--what is your angle? Are you trying to prove some point? I am reading these blog posts and you seem to simply want to pin people down and make it seem they are saying stuff they are NOT saying. It makes me think you have a plot here and that you are ultimately working to try and discredit Carla and the Trust Birth Initiaitve.

We all understand that not every person will understand where we are coming from--that is ok--but I am not bashing the "respect" birth philosophy and telling everyone who will listen what I personally think of it. I understand where those who believe that way think (I was once there myself) but just understand I don't agree with it. It is ok with me if those in that belief system think I am simple for not buying into it any longer--I just don't feel a need to trash it, talk about it, or act like I want to learn more about it. I just want to know your motives, Kristina--because from what I am reading here on your blog and from what you are saying on people's facebook walls in rebuttal to the TB philosophy--it seems quite clear that you DO NOT believe in the TB mentality and way of thinking--that is fine. But if this is true--why not just admit such and move on believing in whatever it is that you do believe in. And if this is such, why not tell me so we can keep you from being miserable in July hearing a ton of TB info. This is why we chatted. I am trying and trying to understand where you are coming from but your blog posts and facebook comments are not at all like what I was hearing you say on the phone to me. Please help me here. If I am just reading post after post and facebook comment after facebook comment wrong and it is not at all what you mean--then please give me the straight story.

BookwormMama said...

I think Kristina was pretty clear that she is constantly learning, changing, growing and if she doesn't understand something she asks about it from others to get clarity and understanding. That's how she works. I get it. I do that too. If the Trust Birth folk want others to get their truth then wouldn't they want to be engaged in helping someone to understand where their beliefs are coming from and why? Kristina also said above that there are many things that she is aligned with in regards to Trust Birth, but she is trying to make sense of those things that don't make sense in her mind. She gets clarity by looking at things from all sides of an issue. I think she was pretty clear on that.

If you want someone to truly understand your truth, why would you berate them for not believing what you believe when they ask about it? Speak your truth to them, explain yourself a million times if you have to, and love them. There is no need to attack, get personal, or question her motives for wanting to understand when she already explained herself.

By the way this is her blog and you came her to talk with her... and why on earth is there accusations of Kristina trashing TB and Carla??? Hello?! Am I on the same planet here? I am thoroughly confused. I have not seen any trashing of TB or Carla.

Let me make this perfectly clear so everyone understands me...

For those accusing her of this, I ask you to show me the proof. This is very unprofessional and unkind to come here to her blog and personally berate and attack her for not understanding something she truly wants to get and understand.

Is this how the Trust Birth folk work? Do they question motives of everyone that wants to dialogue and discuss with them? I am looking forward to my midwifery skills lab and certainly want it to be a wonderful, learning, growing experience and I am open to learning all about the Trust Birth philosophy, as is Kristina.

I am not encouraged however by the personal attacking going on here when someone is truly trying to understand and learn.

RedSpiral said...

Okay, I had to step away because I feel like no matter what I say, it's going no-where. So having stepped away and asked for the right words, I discovered an analogy that is my LAST DITCH effort to be heard on this.

I want to say first that I realize that my mistake may have been asking my questions publicly rather than waiting for the training where we could go into more depth rather than trying to have this tennis-match online. I think a lot of this could have been avoided had I just waited. I had no way to know that my questions (which would be the very same ones I would have asked at your training, Kristi, and just as persistently) would lead to all of this awful frustration. Had I known that, I might have made some different choices.

Okay, on to the analogy:

Imagine you are a spiritual person and your heart is open to several paths even though you feel pretty clear on what you believe. While set in your own beliefs, you recognize the wisdom and beauty of other faiths and ways of believing and are curious to know more about them.

Imagine you come across one belief system that is especially intriguing- you find that you do believe several things in common but that there are some things you still don't understand. You are curious and want to inquire further.

You reach out to the members of the faith who seem to have the most answers and you ask questions. Their answers make you think deeply but also raise more questions. You continue to ask your questions because you're considering what this faith might mean in your life - is there something here of value? It seems so! It is exciting and scary to think of what it might mean, but you aren't going to jump in without a really clear understanding. Who would- a change or shift in faith is an enormous undertaking!

Now imagine that the people who represent the faith do not meet your continued questions with an open heart, rather they meet you with mistrust, and even disdain. They seem to be frustrated that you are 'still' asking questions, even though their answers seem so simple and easy to understand. They wonder about your intentions. Imagine they accuse you of saying things against the faith, and even the main leader of the faith, just because you persist in questioning.

This is MY truth- this is what *I* am experiencing. I am telling you what is true for ME. I challenge you to really set down your perceptions and see what I am saying with a new set of eyes. I'm asking you to set aside your judgment of me, assumptions you have about my intention, and see me.

I will be honest, I do not believe you will do it. I have tried to understand where this assumption has come from that I mean TB any harm and I don't see it. The existence of Trust Birth has been actually very beneficial to me; message has definitely caused me to have some really incredibly wonderful conversations around my own values and had me push where I didn't think I would, and pull back where I didn't think I would do that, either. I just don't rest on the face-value message, I want to know more, and more, and more! That is where I am running into trouble for some reason.

I have seen people go on Facebook and question the philosophy, many questions that I have even shared but not voiced, and I have seen people jump on them, attacking them, saying that they were against TB, against Carla Hartley... and I didn't understand why that was happening but I said nothing. I just watched and figured out quickly (after a couple of discussions) to keep my questions to myself.

Kristi, I have kept my questions to myself for weeks now. This is my blog, and I get to ask any question I want! I have been holding back for fear of stirring up *exactly this mess* of being misunderstood. I have NEVER said anything disparaging about Trust Birth and especially not Carla Hartley. I really, really resent that accusation because it is baseless and untrue. Please, PLEASE stop saying unless you can prove what you say. (Continued)

RedSpiral said...

I have STOPPED asking questions of anything Trust Birth related on Facebook because for some reason the feedback I get consistently comes to me 'making assumptions', putting words in someone's mouth, or attacking Carla! That, in my view, is by far the most EGREGIOUS accusation! I may not agree with some of the things Carla says, I may not agree with some of the ways she goes about things, but I respect her fierce passion and her heart. I respect what she has laid down for what she believes is right and true, and at the base level I respect her humanity and presence in the shared sister-hood. I believe she is promoting what she believes is absolutely the BEST thing for women and babies. Carla Hartley isn't even an issue, has nothing to do whatsoever with my questions but her name comes up whenever I start asking as if I am slighting her personally somehow. Why?? I don't understand it.

I have not said, "Okay you're saying this is the Truth, but what about this [random element brought up to disprove your statement]? This proves you wrong!" at any time. I have not threatened, I have not name-called, I have not been mean. I have simply asked questions.

I'm not sure what else to say at this point except that I see that these conversations might be better had in person, assuming that is still going to happen - and hope that it leads to less frustration and more understanding. I hate the frustration, and the stress and adrenaline. It feels like interference! ;)

If you find that you can not read this message with an open heart, with an attempt to believe me telling what is true for me, then maybe this training isn't a good match at all. Please decide that for yourself and let me know. If you feel like we could potentially dialogue in a more positive way in person, then let's take that chance.

Bettie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bettie said...

Kristina, here is another analogy for you...

Imagine that you believe in something, a hard truth for many to accept. Naturally, you want to share with anyone.You believe that ALL will benefit from this Truth.

Along come many who argue against this truth. You know that it is not your job to change each of their minds, so you stick to your truth and let them find their own way.

Some come wanting to learn, they want to hear as much as they can while they struggle to believe. You reach out to them, but still it is theirs to learn.

A few come like wolves in sheep's clothing. They pretend to want to learn but they staunchly defend the way they are used to. They call for you to come and "teach" them. When you come, you come hesitantly, but still you tell the truth.You are willing to let them believe what they want to believe, but they come for more. They publicly ask questions and attack the responses, leading you to believe that they are not really asking at all.

I am not attacking you personally Kristina, I don't know you at all. I am attacking your premise that Trust Birth is a list of rules to follow and kool-aid to drink. It is simply that Birth Is Safe, and Interference is Risky. ALL interference.

We are at an impasse. I hope you will continue educating yourself. I was a "great" doula before Trust Birth...but that depends on what you define great as.

I wish you well.